Do you know what the most important biomarkers are to track health? Mark Holland, CEO of Choose Health, shares what they are, along with some other interesting facts about health screening and blood tests. We know how important it is to eat right and exercise, but it’s also just as crucial to understand how your lifestyle choices are impacting your long-term health through your biomarkers. With the increasing adoption of at-home test kits, listen to learn how you can take control of your own health without having to leave your home!

Show Notes:

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Pretty ok (not great) transcript:

Mark Holland

[00:00:00] Mason: Well, I first learned about choose health while walking with another entrepreneur. I, Josh Baer of capital factory in town and he showed me his markers on his phone and his trend over time and how his health markers had changed over. Two years, right on his phone, right. In one screen. And I thought it was the most amazing thing I’d ever seen.

And I’ve been a customer ever since. Finally got Jess on board and the last few months, but your background, like a lot of the guests we have on here is very diverse, but before choose health, there was a CPG company that really helped you decide this is what you wanted to do.

[00:00:38] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. Yeah, nice to meet everyone. So my background’s in consumer goods, consumer health health and wellness categories so moved over from Ireland when I was 24 to basically progressed the north American division of a small Irish distribution company that worked on, um, Uh, natural ingredients, guns.

[00:01:02] Mason: That’s what I thought

[00:01:03] Mark Holland of Choose Health: you

[00:01:03] Jess: said.

[00:01:06] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Um, so

[00:01:07] Mason: we were, that’s all that happens in the movies. Uh, Irish guys come to America and sell guns.

[00:01:12] Mark Holland of Choose Health: It’s amazing how much we’ve been misrepresented over the years. We’ll take it. Uh, but so. We were always

[00:01:20] Mason: going to

[00:01:20] Mark Holland of Choose Health: mess with you. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, so we were working on proprietary formulas on dietary for natural ingredients.

So we basically try and prove out formulas against some of the big drag drug categories. So looking at natural form and as it worked for cholesterol and blood pressure reduction and. We would either license out those formulas or build a bronze ourselves. And so when I moved to the states, we had just, we’d found a formula that works very well for hair and skin.

And we decided to build a brand around that. And so we built out a. Uh, yeah, hair growth for hair thickness or hair diameters. So the, the clinical trials were showing us an increase in here, its diameter on primarily for females because the category of

the category for. Female hair growth was primarily male genetic products that were just slapped on with the female label. And, um, so it was really made it pink. They made the bottle pink glamorized it, they call it extra charged extra. And these were products that were designed for men. So it was a category that had just had absolutely zero innovation.

Females were going to dermatologists and being charged thousands of dollars for routines of lasers and all sorts of programs. I hadn’t necessarily any clinical evidence behind them. So that was the insight. And so, uh, yeah, I spent 10 years doing that before, and then we sold up business and had a two year non-compete and then choose health kind of spawned out of just looking at the entire health and wellness space and seeing where we could add value where we could create the most impact and really thought that biomarkers As an information points were poorly accessible, where the education behind what they mean, the relevance, how you can affect them.

Everything was pretty poorly understood in the general population. And even amongst people who. Who tracked their health, or even amongst people who go to expensive functional doctors and tests, everything under the sun, like the basic concepts of metabolic health and of general internal health was very poorly understood.

So that was the original insight. And can

[00:03:45] Jess: you explain quickly what a biomarker is? It’s very basic, but

[00:03:50] Mark Holland of Choose Health: yes. So blue marker is basically the composition of your blood or. Or your saliva or so a biomarker is for example, HBA one C is the biomarker that measures average blood sugar over three months.

So to effectively measures the glucose levels in your blood over a three-month period. And that’s your leading indicator for diabetes or for metabolic disorder within the body. So. There are thousands of biomarkers that we have identified over the years and obviously some more commonly used than others based on kind of conditions and based on diseases that we have developed and understood more as kind of medicine and sciences.

[00:04:33] Mason: My history prior to choose health with biomarkers is that every couple of years I’d go in and say, just does everything just do it. And that would lead to. You know, 20 to 25 vials of blood, or I’m like, should I be careful driving after this? And then, you know, I had one great doctor for awhile who could, it would interpret any of them that ne we needed to talk about, but they’re not going to talk about all 200 tests.

And so then I get sent home with this list of, it was like, well, it’s within range or not within range, but you know, not any really idea, like what any of them. Mike, should I, should I work for them to be lower or do I work for them to be higher? Like within the range? You’re like, which one is good and which one is bad?

Talk about the process of whittling down those hundreds of biomarkers to what choose health provides.

[00:05:25] Mark Holland of Choose Health: this is what I think is the most interesting part of our business. So I had a couple of friends in Ireland, a doctor who had spent 20 years in. The sports science space. He was the physician for the Irish rugby team.

He had managed the, or he was the medical director for the sky professional cycling team for several years on, around the time when the doping scandals were starting to come out and, uh, some of the. Well known names that you’ve heard over the years. Some local identities had started to uncover, but

[00:06:01] Mason: we won’t say his name that starts with an L ends with a G in the middle is aunts Armstrong.

[00:06:09] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. So. Uh, Dr. Allen Pharrell is his name. He was in the mix through that entire space of time. And, uh, as professional athletes, they were required to do to undergo a process called a biological passport where every month they would run a panel of two to 300 markers on their athletes and track them every month.

So they would do this every month on. It was originally to try and have a passport so that the authorities could look back and see. So as doping detection improves, they could look back and see, uh, which markers have moved is that indicative of whether an athlete had been doping or not.

And so he started using these biomarkers. To track and measure performance as well as obviously its main use of identifying, cheaters. But he’d measured out and he had come to this formulation of there, there were a few markers that, that were the most important indication of optimal performance.

When we were sitting down over Christmas in 2018, he, basically had described this concept to me, the idea that every human should have a biological passport, that we should all track and monitor the most basic markers of metabolic health purely as an indicator. Developing a chronic disease or an indicator of developing an acute injury or an acute internal disease such as early onset of cancer.

His take was that everybody should have, a track or, or some form of identifying these issues. So we, so I set out to find. The labs. And obviously the, so the direct to consumer lab testing space had been around for a few years and every well, and that’s got checked in Ireland had started to grow quite rapidly.

And so the form factor existed, but we didn’t feel. That they were being used in this use case. So, so our identification was to try and create this X, Y axis of affordability and comprehensive metabolic health testing. So I went around and found labs that could provide accuracy and affordability, which turned out there were very few of, uh, across the U S and so, and I had no experience in the lab space.

So it was kind of my first foray beyond running clinical trials with CRO organizations into working in the true medical space where these labs are regulated By the lab organization.

[00:08:40] Mason: Um, there’s a long acronym. I think it’s like four letters or something.

[00:08:44] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. It, well, they’re actually regulated by two separate bodies of the government.

So the regulation, the regulatory environment is just convoluted. It’s state by state. It’s so hard to build out the infrastructure to manage that. And, uh, Kind of netted out that we did not want it to cost more than like 50, 60 bucks a month or a quarter to, to make this a no-brainer for people to get access to it.

So that was kind of the origins.

[00:09:10] Jess: Did you start with five and now you guys have six and can you explain what each of those are and how it relates to living a healthy life?

[00:09:17] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yep. Absolutely. So good question.

[00:09:21] Mason: How much time we got maybe the one second?

[00:09:24] Jess: Well, it’s just like very basic. So one of them is measuring your average blood sugar, just like quickly. How does that relate to health? Not this we can make it easy.

[00:09:36] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Um, most of these markers you would run your you’re in your annual physical. Your doctor might run two at three of them are for blood typically.

The individual is not getting access to the information and they’re not truly understanding what these markers mean and the use case and how to improve. So that’s what we set out to build. So the core panel was, uh, average blood sugar insulin sensitivity, which we use a proxy of triglycerides to HDL, which is the next most studied indicator of insulin resistance in the body.

Fascinating. Primarily because measuring fasted insulin to faster glucose, which is home I, or is difficult to do right from home or at home tap in through dry blood spot testing. so yeah, insulin sensitivity is obviously the body’s ability to metabolize glucose and to create insulin.

Alan kind of viewed insulin sensitivity is the master regulator. As in if you’re insulin resistance, insulin sensitivity is in line pretty much. It is out of whack, everything else. It doesn’t really matter. Everything else is likely going to be negatively impacted through that. So. So that was kind of what we built a panel around insulin sensitivity.

Uh, but adult star

[00:10:47] Mason: around that one then so important. Yeah, really good

[00:10:51] Mark Holland of Choose Health: shape. Well, again, it’s like this, these concepts were so poorly understood and that was kind of the most shocking thing to me. I mean, I’d spent like 12 years in the consumer health space and the amount I learned in the first three months of doing this.

It was shocking to me because I considered myself fairly well-educated in the space. And then, these physicians talking through things, and I was having a fact check on Wikipedia quite frequently, so, and web MD. So we have, aside from that, we have inflammation, which is measured through HS CRP, and.

Is an indicator of an acute issue within the body. Uh, we use GGT to measure oxidative stress, which is typically Saddler damage can be an indicator of issues with the liver, with other organs within the body.

[00:11:45] Jess: That was my only one that was. Oh, stress

[00:11:49] Mark Holland of Choose Health: indicator. Yeah. Can actually be in juice by drinking too much alcohol.

So can it not pointing any fingers? Yeah.

[00:11:56] Mason: So if you did it too close to drinking,,

[00:11:58] Jess: it can come from drinking too much. So I haven’t done my second one. My second. Test yet, but I have a bachelorette party this weekend. It’s my bachelorette party. So I figure I’ll be making a lot of poor decisions for my health. So would you recommend me not take it like the Monday or Tuesday?

I get back. Can it be affected by that close related of an incident, eating something bad or drinking too much? Or

[00:12:23] Mark Holland of Choose Health: I would give yourself five or six days. I guess a true re

[00:12:27] Mason: so give it five or six days. Cause I, I received the kit while I was at a friend’s batch.

Party and came back and she’s like, you’ve got your choose health. I’m like, I’m going to wait a week because I know that my body was in bad shape a bit after

[00:12:47] Mark Holland of Choose Health: When you take a step back and you think of most health and wellness products and. And the space that I would have lived in for a long time, like nutraceuticals, you know, food, a lot of wellness products give you this false sense of security.

What, regardless of whether they work on you, you’ve answered no objective way. No, how they’re actually affecting you and, and the placebo factor with a lot of these products are, there’s a huge feel-good factor to a community orientated. I mean, you guys know the power of a community and, and other brands.

Um, so when you think of like being truly honest with yourself, like, you know, this is a very objective product and I’ve never. Worked on something that, that hasn’t, you know, creating an emotional response to your results comes naturally. It, it’s kind of the aha moments with our products when somebody gets their results and, uh, you know, you really can bluff your way or blag your way through it.

It’s it is what it is. And then, you know, you decide what you want to do about it. Yeah,

[00:13:59] Mason: yeah. Yeah. And for those of us who drink regularly, Which markers. So there’s oxidative stress and blood sugar. Are those the two main ones?

[00:14:09] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. Primarily it can affect your insulin sensitivity over time, but yeah, obviously, depending on your activity levels,

[00:14:18] Mason: Yeah, well, mine have been in the optimal range for some time now.

So I’m rather impressed with the amount of alcohol

[00:14:26] Jess: I drink. Generally biomarkers have been in the optimal

[00:14:28] Mason: range. At least the ones in choose health. The blood sugar gets a little, we’ll get right on the edge with occasional tests, but, uh, oxidative stress and insulin resistance. But I try to not do any sugar otherwise, but maybe we should do, uh, we should do a show.

On how we. Mediate our alcohol drinking. Yeah. Well,

[00:14:51] Mark Holland of Choose Health: and it’s hard to tell. We

[00:14:52] Mason: can prove it. We can prove it, which is out. Yeah,

[00:14:54] Mark Holland of Choose Health: exactly. Yeah. And you know, it’s always this paradigm of like, you, you don’t want, uh, you don’t want a product to make somebody feel bad or to, you know, That’s just not the, the goal of any business or companies.

It’s not a good growth strategy. So for example, one of the market, one of the other markers, a visceral thought. We, uh, typically you would have to go and do a DEXA scan, or if you wanted to get a true reading of, of , which is internal fat and this condition, and you can be skinny and still have issues with internal fat it’s it’s called TOFI tin on the thin on the outside fat on the inside.

And, uh, we measured by. A waist to height ratio, which is a better indicator than BMI of internal fat. Interesting. That a lot of the, the new craft beers, like the IPA, like a lot of the heavy IPA’s can create. Internal fat around the organs are there. They’re just obviously more carbon sensitive and there there’s a lot more sugar in these drinks.

And, um, and on there, obviously the drink of choice of a lot of athletes and people who weekend warriors who go for runs and like myself, yeah, I had a high rating and obviously you shocked by a doctor telling you your, visceral fat is high. Yeah, BMI is

[00:16:22] Jess: fine. And you’re absolutely, I would not expect that of you.

[00:16:26] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Thank you. Appreciate that. Happy to shame myself.

[00:16:29] Mason: So beyond the alcohol, what about not, we’re not admitting to anything but mind altering substances, you know, is there any, uh, markers that are particularly affected by

[00:16:42] Mark Holland of Choose Health: you? So your oxidative stress could be impacted by tobacco?

I cannot answer for, I need the others uppers downers, or, I mean, even though their medications and pharmaceuticals and stuff when you take like these, like, so we focus on markers that are not specific as in, uh, highly sensitive, but not specific. So, for example, we don’t do PSA, which is an indicator of prostate cancer because we prefer to focus on markers that can be.

Generalized across a general health spectrum, as opposed to being specific about this or that, because we’re not an executive wellness program. And, you know, that’s, that’s kind of the use case for, for, uh, Concert indicating markers are for DNA tests that can indicate your prevalence to develop some of these things.

we’re, we’re, we’re trying to go with, this is taking a general health tests where something is affordable for the mass public and something that markers that everybody should be tracking and then provide additional markers as they’re indicated. So for example, TSH is higher tyroid. Stimulating hormone is suboptimal.

We would provide an advanced thyroid panel where you can understand more, um, throughout home use, which you typically have to do through a functional doctor today, which can cost, you know, three to $10,000, depending on who you’re going to see. So it’s kind of evolved. Functional medicine has kind of evolved as this elitist.

You know, affluent users, because obviously there is a pretty big barrier to entry. So really, I think what we’ve built is a, is a digital version of a functional health process. Like a very, uh, an entry point for somebody to get access to entry-level functional medicine for, you know, 40 or 50 books instead of

[00:18:37] Mason: shallow and accessible to everyone because their annual costs on that.

With what it can show you, you know, the individual, I get these six markers with choose health and is cheaper than most of my individual tests I do on everybody. Well, you know, and I’m excited. Y’all, we’re adding in some of these additional lens. I’d vitamin D. Testosterone and thyroid

And I love that. I, I can feel fairly confident that while I may be creating specific issues with specific habits, generally, I’m doing pretty well.

[00:19:09] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. And most people are like the, the point of this again is not to shame. People are not to make people feel bad. It’s just, it’s just too. People an honest reflection of where they are and we’ve tried to bait.

So we’ve baked in personalized suggestions on like, here are the here’s the most like everything that’s beyond a consensus sold. Like this is, we only bake in information that is that 99.9% of practitioners would agree on, um, from a diet exercise. Lifestyle habit perspective. And these are the things you should be doing.

[00:19:42] Jess: So through the app, if one of your biomarkers is high or low, whatever the case may be, then there’s a tailored approach in terms of diet and exercise. So there’s recommendations within the app or online, wherever you’re checking it.

And it’ll tell you what types of diets would be recommended. Is that correct?

[00:19:59] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Correct. Yeah. Yep. Perfect. So we provide, we try to provide like the basic information. Where again, it’s beyond consensus. You know, I think that it’s probably the most difficult time in human history to get, to find actual information for every part of the motivation for this.

Again was like, you could go online and there’s for every new buzzword or new clinical trial that comes out. There’s. An equal opposing mountain of information that would stay at the, you know, the negative reasons for this or that. And so it’s just a very difficult on to decipher. um, with this product, you can kind of just understand where you are and try something for a month or three months or whatever cadence you’d like to test and see how it affects your markers as opposed to, you know, relying on.

The interwebs to, which is always

[00:20:49] Jess: bad. I feel like I’m such a hypochondriac, especially I’ve grown out of it a little bit, but through college and those years, I mean, I thought I was dying like every other month, probably Google can be a very bad place.

[00:21:02] Mark Holland of Choose Health: We think of the keto craze. And you have like, if you’re a hyper responder to cholesterol and you instantly shift from eating a balanced diet to eating eggs and steak all day, Of course, like that is a very risky proposition for hyper responders to class trial.

And, you know, you, you’re online listening to influencers and listening to people that develop devoted their careers and their lives to Quito. And, you know, they there’s, I very rarely see warning labels on anything related to advice online these days. Yeah. Yeah. There’s no one size fits all.

When we were looking at this space, it was clear that at-home testing.

Although like, I still believe it’s in its infancy. It’s still only in the lab. The at-home laptops lab testing spaces growing at about 50% a year, but it’s still single digits percentage of the overall lab testing space. So. It’s still at its infancy, but there is this part on where the labs have to innovate.

The actual testing will improve over time. Like the, the real bottleneck in this whole space is the lab and a lot of labs it’s it’s as much an art as it is a science and a. The standardization is difficult or

[00:22:18] Mason: knows that was all art science

[00:22:21] Mark Holland of Choose Health: and design a lot of design, but, uh, yeah, it was an interesting time to get into lab testing when the news of that was just breaking.

[00:22:32] Mason: I was right at the time. And then has COVID accelerated adoption at all.

[00:22:37] Mark Holland of Choose Health: it’s accelerated adoption of The idea of testing at home? Our whole concept is take control of your own health. And I think coming out of COVID, we’re still at the early adopter phase.

We’re still dealing with people. Care a lot. Like the worried well was kind of what they’re usually called, but that’s kind of the

[00:22:59] Mason: bedroom, probably both of us worried about, although we do very specific things to damage our bodies, but then we, you know, we take the time to recover

[00:23:09] Jess: a lot of supplementation, which, I mean, I guess.

She’s health is helping us determine if our supplementation is actually doing its job,

[00:23:17] Mason: which I think it is based on our results.

[00:23:19] Jess: Well, yours, maybe not mine.

[00:23:23] Mason: You’ve only done one test. That’s true. Do it for a year. And then you can decide whether or not okay.

[00:23:28] Mark Holland of Choose Health: I spent a lot of time in, in clinical trials, as I mentioned in my past life.

And when you see what a clue, what you have to do within a clinical trial to actually validate like clinical end points on the hassle of having to call in and out, uh, to the clinical research organization to get your blood drawn and then come back every 30, 60 days, like the part of the thesis was this was, could we create, uh, an at-home clinical trial mechanism where someone could do the work themselves?

To understand and objectively, see if things are, I think the bigger picture when I’m talking, when I was talking about like adoption of. Most people don’t care enough to including myself initially. I mean, I’ve gotten, I’ve gotten into it because obviously I have to drink the Kool-Aid to some extent.

And I, I enjoy now tracking, because again, if you go on a bachelor weekends, you can kind of object,

[00:24:22] Mason: we drink a different kind of Kool-Aid that requires Dustin.

[00:24:27] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Yeah. But I think over time, I mean, when you, when you think of where things are. I would imagine that like, there’ll be more, like your pre your insurance premium, for example, will likely be more effected by your biomarkers going forward.

And, you know, things like determination of how healthy you are for whatever reason. Well, this information will likely become more important in the future as. Quantifying more and more in our daily lives. Yeah.

[00:24:58] Mason: Well, my son better get over his fear of being pricked. I may have to borrow his black, right?

[00:25:03] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Exactly.

[00:25:05] Mason: My insurance requires a test after a bachelor weekend then. All right, son. Yeah, that’s a whole new level. Huh? We gotta, we gotta test to take,

[00:25:14] Mark Holland of Choose Health: we actually have a lot of our users use us for privacy reasons Because we’re a small, privately owned entity. We’ve stated in our terms and conditions would never share information with anybody.

We’ll never. When you work through these larger lab collection entities, the terms and conditions are so convoluted that you really have no way of knowing who you’re sharing with or where your dad is going to end up. So I think privacy and it’s one of our core pillars is probably.

[00:25:45] Mason: Okay. I was going to say, you might be missing a revenue opportunity selling the data to parents, come back.

[00:25:51] Mark Holland of Choose Health: That’s not why you started this. It really wasn’t. And it’s become more and more of a, so it was a philanthropic endeavor really when like working with them, the margins aren’t. Aren’t that big in this industry. And, you know, like, I, I didn’t get into this for financial reasons. Really. I got into it in a fairly mission driven reasons to try and use my time as effectively as possible.

And I figured the. The financial benefits would kind of follow that rush now. Yeah. Um, that will eventually

[00:26:24] Mason: catch up. I mean, it trying to make the world better is generally a philanthropic effort, but I feel like sticking to it. I mean, I’ve been doing it 20 years now and every now and then, then the financial rewards follow.

A lot of the time. It doesn’t.

[00:26:39] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Okay. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and if I never made any money out of this, it still wouldn’t. I would still be glad though we’re doing what we’re doing. We, I mean, purely just hearing feedback from users and we’ve had users cat. Early onset of pretty serious diseases through using this and seeing spikes and inflammation, and then going to tell their primary care physician with this information provides a layer of accountability on the primary care physician to really understand why this is happening, which you know, the vast majority of people don’t have today.

And it creates accountability across all layers of the. Practice, which is something that we’re pretty proud of. That’s

[00:27:24] Mason: amazing. Yeah. That’s incredible. That’s some real impact right there. One, how do we help get the word out? And two, what’s your vision for the future?

[00:27:33] Mark Holland of Choose Health: Uh, or fishing is to. I suppose, continue to layer value in a, when we think of a digital functional health experience, w we’re definitely not trying to replace physicians or to remove any layers of protection that individuals would have from a medical perspective or from a personal care perspective.

It’s legal told you to say, that’s, that’s what I’ve learned. The hard way over the last year. Like everybody has a vision of what’s safe and balanced, the checks and balances mean to them. And you’re never going to create a one size fits all them. We’re we’re definitely not trying to diagnose our cure treat or we’re literally a screening company.

And so, um, if. The ethos of early detection and screening, and we want to just continue to layer on value with additional markers. So we will continue to innovate as the labs innovate on new markers on we’ll continue to, as more painless blood extraction devices come out. We’ll continue to layer that in.

So I think just providing the most seamless, easy way to track your internal health and. And really going deeper into specific areas is kind of where the vision for, for what we’re trying to do is, and our overall mission is to help a million people improve one marker of internal health. Cause by improving one marker, you have to have taken two tests and by somebody seeing they can improve one mark.

Gives people object of hope and knowledge that you can actually improve these pretty easily within a 30, 60, 90 day window. So, wow.

[00:29:17] Mason: That’s powerful. Any, uh, oh, I’ve one question. I feel like we’ve touched on it a couple of times, but. I would love to collaborate on a health experiment, where we track people.

And the one in particular, I really like to debate a vegan versus carnivore, and maybe we take some vegans and we test them and then we make them do a carnivore diet. And then we take some carnivores and test them and make them do a vegan diet and then see how their market is changing.

[00:29:49] Jess: I think you’d have to start with an omnivore and force them to go one way or the other.

I don’t think you can make a vegan, tried carnivore diet or have a carnivore try vegan diet. You have to find two people or people who are in the middle of the road.

[00:30:01] Mason: Sure, though. Okay. Maybe that’s best. Maybe that’s best people who have wanted to go vegan or people, someone today was like, well, um, you know, I’m kind of doing keto, but not so much fat, just, you know, High quality protein, all protein is the worst way to do any diet, but that’s the message.

A lot of people get out of these, you know, keto or paleo or carnivore diets. They still have this ingrained, you know, aversion to fat. And so they just, all they eat is protein. If I know one thing I feel like that’s not good for you.

[00:30:38] Mark Holland of Choose Health: I would love to be the referee for you, between your groups of tribal friends who vouched for one or the other.

I, I, to be honest, it’s like, it’s, it’s part of the joy of this is when you have somebody, I meet somebody that’s on this, whatever crazy health kick they’re on spending, like hundreds of dollars on a juice cleanse or whatever it is. Uh, Providing them with information because I find these people will go around and tell the world about their newest and latest way that they’ve spent and

[00:31:13] Mason: how good they feel, how great

[00:31:14] Mark Holland of Choose Health: now I live, absolutely zero other than subjective energy and weight loss, which is great, obviously, but like, uh, I love supplying them with information beyond that.

I do that for all my friends to shame them.

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